'Joint Enterprise'* and deportation!

by John Wilkins

AN article in The Guardian caught my eye this week because it dealt with the use of what it termed “controversial and discriminatory joint enterprise law.” It also involved the order to deport the person involved in a crime.

I will outline the case first but then look at how double standards seem to be involved when it is a 'black' person rather than a 'white' or 'brown' person involved.

Osime Brown is 21 years old Jamaican born man who came to the UK aged just 4. He is autistic and was slow as a child even in learning to walk. He had behavioural and learning problems at school and it resulted in exclusion aged 16. It would seem his problems had not been forensically diagnosed until then so he never received adequate support, merely being labelled disruptive.

He had been engaged in low level criminal behaviour but the latest crime involved the theft of a mobile phone. Although he was part of the group who took the phone witnesses said he had asked the other teenagers he was with to stop the street robbery, but he was convicted under the joint enterprise law which anyone considered complicit in a crime can be arrested even if they played no part in the crime. Critics say this law has disproportionately criminalised many young black men with those imprisoned through it being 11 times their presence in the community.

I used the term double standards in the headline for a reason. Our local Campaign Group, BOLD, have been following up the way our local authority have appeared to 'sweep under the carpet' the conviction of only 4 out of nearly 20 men who were present when a local workman suffered three broken ribs, a punctures lung and nearly had his hand severed in an axe attack. They were summoned by one of the gang by phone after the victim interceded in a dispute between the man and a lady driver.

The judge quite clearly termed it gangsterism and when local MP was asked to condemn the case as gangsterism he was happy to publicly acknowledge it as such also. Despite councillors, including the leader, the Local Authority officials being asked not just to condemn the gangsterism and how they can work with the police to reduce it in area no one is prepared to comment. A contrast here is that the police have been very open and forthright about how they are working on this issue.

That is one comparison with how Osime has been treated but let me turn to a more startling disparity, that of deportation. The effect of imprisonment itself on Osime has been considerable. He has suffered racial abuse and bullying. Without, his mother says, a mentor or support worker his health has deteriorated and he is self harming. He does not fully comprehend how he would cope in Jamaica, thinking he could catch a bus to visit mum from there!

I have over time felt that those now termed Immigration Enforcement Officers will use easy targets to boost their figures for deportations. Now I come to another very worrying comparison again from my town Rochdale.

Few people will not have knowledge of the grooming scandal involving vulnerable young girls in Rochdale. Three members of the grooming gang remain in the UK more than 18 months after they lost an appeal against losing their British citizenship. I concur with the Independent's sub headline: 'Home Office accused of prioritising offenders with Jamaican roots over sex abusers.'

Yes Osime has been involved in low level crime, but deportation would be extremely cruel for him with no family support in Jamaica and a condition which will make him even more vulnerable there. It is known that at least 11 have died as a result of unjust deportation from the Windrush scandal, it is likely that Osime could be another unnecessary death. I urge you to sign the Change.org petition for Osime Brown.

* Editor's note on Joint Enterprise:

'Why joint enterprise is unfair and needs changing' by Sandra Paul in The Law Society Gazette 23 December 2014

Exactly two years ago, I stood in tears outside Wood Green Crown Court, having just left my 16-year-old client, one of four teenage black males of previous good character, in the cells facing a three-year custodial sentence for GBH. Some 18 months earlier, he had been part of an altercation at Hendon tube station.

He was guilty of common assault, even ABH, and certainly affray. All of these were offered as guilty pleas to the prosecution. However, they were rejected on the basis that joint enterprise would convict a group of the more serious offence of GBH.

CCTV footage shows my client was as far as 20 feet away from the victim at the time he was stabbed. However, my client was convicted of section 18 GBH on the basis that it was ‘reasonably foreseeable’ that others might get involved when he punched the complainant and that ‘serious harm might’ result, irrespective of whether that was what he intended. My client was 14 at the time of the incident and I am convinced could not have forseen that his action could have led to the ultimate outcome which resulted.

Looking at the CPS guideline published since then, I am hopeful, but not convinced, that a review on the same facts would lead to a different result. Consideration of the judge’s directions for the jury outlined in the Crown Court Bench Book is equally problematic for young people.

*********************************************************************

What’s in the news in the internet in Venezuela.

 by Milton Pena

Editor:  The report below was sent by 

the author to John Wilkins of BOLD 

(Building Our Local Democracy}

YOUR request prompt me to look into the internet regarding what’s making the news in the internet in Venezuela.

Operación Gedeon.

I found it on google and didn’t know about it till 30 min ago! 

 

Guaido denies it. But apparently yesterday a group of anti Maduro Venezuelan military men from Colombia tried to enter the country via the Coast.  They came from Colombia, country that denied any involvement.  A gun battle took place and some were killed and other captured. 

 

An American mercenary went public to say that it was part of 17 similar groups already in Venezuela and their aim is to turn the arm forces against the government. 

 

No one on my household or in the neighborhood or in the media is talking about it. It’s only the internet and I suspect Main Stream media abroad!

Food and petrol

There is no shortage of food and people are not dying of hunger.  But it’s true that the prices have increased three fold since I arrived.  The government distributes a bag of food every month that helps a lot. 

 

Mangos are begining  to ripen and are plentiful.  They grow every where and generally not sold in shops but given free.  Speculation is ripe and difficult to control.  The petrol situation I don’t understand,  but there is enough for movement of goods and people.  Lately corrupted police  in charge at the pumps are charging in dollars for every litre, to those trying to avoid queues 

Covid 19

The statistics speak by themselves, only ten deaths till now, and only around 360 have contracted it.

 

This has been possible because very strict limitation of interstate movement, closing airports, quarantine and compulsory use of masks.  Also tracking every one suspected with the virus, known here as “pesquisaje”. 

Education 

University, secondary education continues via de internet.  This is a fact as I have witnessed myself by helping my nephews with their work.  I had to refresh my physiology and pathology and even maths (irrational numbers!)

Hope this account helps 

Building Our Local Democracy:

 Building Our Local Democracy (BOLD)

AN Open Meeting of Building Our Local Democracy will be held next Thursday.  

BETTERS BUSES MEETING:

To let you have your say on how our bus services could be improved. Chance to see the Consultation Document on getting our bus services regulated. Speakers include John Boughton, Unite Union, Marie Douglas, Greater Manchester Older Peoples' Network and others. 

 Time: 7.30pm Thursday 14th. November 2019.

 Venue: Function Room, Middleton Archer Pub, Kemp Street, Middleton M24 4UA

Please try and support this event which is promoted by Better Buses for Greater Manchester and locally by BOLD (Building Our Local Democracy).

********************

Youth speaks out on climate change

 Sent to NV by John Wilkins (BOLD group)
ON Friday, 20 th. September thousands of young people gathered around the world to protest for climate justice.  Inspired by Greta Thunberg but powerful in their own right and in their collective unity, this movement is part of wider circles that ripple out in ways we can not imagine...


In Manchester, many of of us shared our voices in speeches, poems and songs.  It was an inspiring space to be and spurred Bridget Holtom, a poet and storyteller from Yorkshire living in Scotland, to stand and share a piece of spoken word written in response to burn out in activism.  To find out more, you can listen to Bridget Holtom speak to other activists about what sustains them in their fight for basic rights or while in solidarity in social and environmental justice movements at www.sustenanceradio.com and most podcast platforms. 


Only when...
Only when climate justice is done,
Only when all of the battles are won,
Only when freedom is for everyone,
Only then will all of our work be done.
Only when...
Borders are open,
Children have spoken,
New leaders are chosen,
Racist myths are broken
...only then
Only when women can say what they wish,
Say it without being burned as a witch,
Say it without being blamed as a bitch,
Only then will we be able to switch...
Off our brains and find peace, without losing sleep, 
while we worry that there's something we might have all missed.
It was only when...
Broader trauma
Border drama
Only then did I ask to take a break,
...survival was at stake.
Only when...
I took a year
Far far away from here
Finally to face my fears

Only then...
Did I realise why I felt so defeated,
***************

Aspects of local begging & the homeless

   E-mail to Councillor X & a reply!

NV Editor:  

THE e-mail below from John Wilkins of BOLD (Build. Our Local Democracy Group) is addressed to a Rochdale Labour councillor.  This correspondence has been inspired by the recent posts on this NV Blog about Rochdale Cllr. Blundell views on homeless beggars.  The e-mail exchange below is self explanatory and addresses the concerns with regard to homelessness and the impact of local begging.  The name of Councillor X has been redacted by John Wilkins.  

We can ony speculate on why Mr. Wilkins thought it necessary to redact the Labour councillors name.  But we have decided to respect his decision and to publish the email exchange anyway.  One thought that occurs to us about the need to redact of Councillor X's name, is that Mr. Wilkins wishes to protect the Labour councillor from any possible backlash.  If this is the case then it seems to suggest that politics in Rochdale is somewhat unhealthy.

******

 Dear iiiiiiii

 Thank you for those reassurances. I hesitate to bring up a related issue because you have responded more times to my communications over a short period of time you have been in Council compared with all my local councillors collectively over the last 5 years. 

  In a rare visit to Rochdale I visited St. Mary in the Baum Church ostensibly to see the work of 'Caring and Sharing' only to find I was on the wrong day but I was able to see the good work being done by the Red Cross in Rochdale.  From there I walked up Yorkshire Street to do business in a couple of banks.  I passed a man sat outside the Halifax who although he do not ask for money, had a cup in front of him for money. Further up I passed a man offering to shine shoes for payment and someone else getting prepared to busk for money.  On my return from the top of Yorkshire Street I passed the the last two people I mentioned but hoping to give the first man some loose change I could not see him where he had been originally.  Whilst contemplating whether to visit the market I looked up Yorkshire Street to see the man I was looking for trudging down the road with his possessions.  I told him I had hoped to see him as I wanted to give him a couple of coins, which he fumbled, dropping one, before managing to find a pocket to put them in.  His dishevelled appearance made him look older than my 74 years but he could have been about 50.  His appearance was made worse by a raw wound to his forehead.  When asked how he got it he said he had been resting on a bench when a man came up to him and hit him without any provocation.  He said he had been moved on from where I had seen him previously by Enforcement Officers but philosophically he said I had not received much money because he felt Rochdale people were hard up themselves!!  He was on a waiting list for a shelter but in the meantime I told him about the Red Cross where he could get a hot drink and on that day a free haircut.

  OK. common story but having watched the last of a series on rough sleepless and homeless, this one in Glasgow,  I was like the undercover journalist, impressed by how pro-active the city was in dealing with the problem.  This in one of the poorest cities in Europe.  They were fast-tracking people into accommodation and although there were many people having to use shelters the number living rough was down to around 30.  The Enforcement Officers have a job to do but we need to be more humane in how we deal with this issue which, though I may be wrong, as big an issue here as in some other towns and cities.

  My question is are these rough sleepers being identified, supported and found a shelter quickly enough?  There will always be a minority who refuse help but many like the man I met are genuinely destitute and wanting help.

John Wilkins 

 ***************

Reply from Rochdale councillor X:

Good afternoon John,

As a society we should not turn a blind eye to what we are seeing on the streets in our towns and cities and clearly John, you are one of the many compassionate people who do not 'walk on the other side of the road’.

Since my election in May, the issue of Enforcement Officers moving people on in Rochdale, who they perceive to be begging, has been highlighted by elected members on at least two occasions, who took the same view as you, that these vulnerable people need help and support, in order to persuade them that there are alternatives available. I do know that the Enforcement Officers have been made aware about our concerns.

From September I’ve been working Monday mornings at the Lighthouse Project foodbank, doing the ‘meet and greet’.  I’ve met several rough sleepers, who have been helped with permanent housing or temporary accommodation in hostels.  The majority, as you would imagine, do accept the help, but I know of at least one, who is unwilling to engage.

I can reassure you that officers and elected members, take the issue of rough sleepers, very seriously and they are being pro-active in their efforts to help and support, those who are clearly in need.

A motion was passed in the Council recently, that called upon the Chief Executive to write to the Government, asking for powers to be extended to Andy Burnham, to enable him to raise a local tax from people who stay in hotels, which would then be used to fund more projects to help with rough sleeping.  Although it’s very unlikely the Government will agree to this,  I think it does send out a message that concerns are growing about the ongoing problem, which is being made even more acute by the government’s austerity programme.

Kind regards,

…................................    

****************

Greater Manchester's Buses

A call for regulation of Greater Manchester's Bus Services.

 by John Wilkins

BOLD # (Building Our Local Democracy) members and an associate met with Rochdale Council Leader, Allen Brett, to obtain a firm commitment from him to support the motion proposed by colleague, Phil Burke, to support the Better Buses for Greater Manchester Campaign for a form of regulation of our bus services. We were joined by campaign organiser, Pascale Robinson, MEN reporter Nick Statham and Clr. Burke (Lead for Transport).

We had arranged the meeting to publicise the Campaign's 'Week of Action' and staged it in Rochdale Bus Station. The initial part of our meeting turned into a photo opportunity and publicity for Clr. Brett. Whilst he committed himself to fully supporting the motion in support of the motion from Clr. Burke based on the model one supplied by the campaign coordinator, Pascale Robinson, he seemed keen to promote himself also. Clr. Brett, who was a director of the old Greater Manchester Buses prior to privatisation, stated “This is something I’m passionate about 100 per cent, and will argue for behind the scenes.” We photographed both councillors along with Pascale and group members in front of a 17A bus and around the bus station. The Council Leader also had members of his own publicity team photographing and recording the meeting before he left to return to his council office.

Our group then joined Clr. Burke in the Council's offices in Number 1 Riverside for further productive discussions on the need for better regulated buses. He was extremely enthusiastic about the subject and listened and responded to all our comments. He stated that “We need to get bus services back to local people for local people, to use them when they want to use them.”  He said Mayor Andy Burnham needs to listen to council leaders that this is what residents want ie. “reliable, clean bus services that will take them from A to B with no issues.”

This echoes comments we received when collecting petition signatures in Middleton a couple of weeks earlier. We collected nearly 100 on the day and almost 200 in total. It is an issue that affects all age groups. We were told about youngsters getting detentions for lateness because of buses, the cost for many workers to the elderly who are being made to feel more isolated with the cutbacks to local routes, whilst companies 'cherry picked' the busier routes. Concerns have been raised throughout the 10 Greater Manchester Local Authorities, with over 200 people attending a meeting organised by Better Buses recently in Manchester Art Gallery.

The response from Onebus (a collective representing GM bus operators) claimed that Better Buses are misleading the public, and driven by a pro-nationalisation political agenda. Clr. Burke rejected these this saying the campaign represents public concerns and “There is no hidden agenda. Our agenda is to provide a good reliable bus service for the people of the north west”.

As well as cost, unreliability of services, the group and Clr. Burke felt there needed to be improvements in accessibility for disabled users, greater cleanliness, public safety and emissions reduced.

If you are reading this and have not signed the petition yet please go to: www.betterbusesgm.org.uk and get your councillors to support the campaign.

Some Facts & Figures:
2 x more spending per head in London than greater Manchester.
Bus use in Manchester has gone down by 40% since deregulation 30 years ago, whilst bus use in London (with regulation) has doubled.
Drivers on same routes different rates of pay, different conditions of service including pensions.
Fairs not standardised a single ticket can cost more than£4 whereas a journey of up to one hour in London could cost as little as £1.50.
Health: Air pollution = 1,000 premature deaths. Highest admissions in Manchester for asthma and higher rates of dementia and respiratory problems.

# BOLD is a non politically aligned campaign group based in Middleton. Find out about us on Facebook at BOLD=Building Our Local Democracy.

If there is a similar group in your area we would love to get in touch with you and work together on important issues.

**********

BOLD & the local media

How much freedom of speech do we really have?
John Wilkins

THIS article summarises the problems a local campaigning group BOLD (Building Our Local Democracy) based in Middleton, has encountered with regard to freedom of speech.

It is an issue which is central to much of what the group is about as illustrated by the first two aims of the group:

1. Encourage more people to exercise their democratic rights, in order to bring power and decision making closer to the people.

2. Promote more democratic accountability and transparency in central and local government, public and private bodies.

Our last but one meeting focussed on the latest of a catalogue of scandals involving Rochdale councillors.  This being the caution accepted by the now Councillor Faisal Rana for casting votes in two different constituencies in the last round of Council Elections. Individual members of our group have contacted the Council, Heywood & Middleton Labour CLP and even the Local Government Ombudsman.

The last meeting concentrated on why many local people in Rochdale Borough will be oblivious of this and earlier scandals as there is inadequate coverage of local politics in the media here.  The local printed papers rarely print a letters column these days which was a way of getting more exposure on local issues.  Until recently Rochdale On – Line was an outlet for those wanting more political stories being put into the public domain.  A prolific contributor on politic issues as well as some of our members have complained about the dearth of comments from residents being published now as well as the archive of previous letters being deleted.

We have to speculate on the reasons behind this weakening of political expression. Could it be that the financial problems reported to be afflicting this news outlet means they are even more dependent on advertising finance from adverts placed by the Council?

In some ways this is not a new issue as a member claimed the child abuse scandal at Knowl View only became covered properly after exposure in 1979 with articles in Private Eye and later The New Statesan.

One member directly asked a local journalist why there was less coverage of public's letters in the local media.  His response was to the effect that there was little enthusiasm from management for printing views that were challenging to local politicians!  Some members regretted the loss of a political reporter for the local papers who was always willing to publish views from them.  One can only guess that his career change might have been due to the stifling of freedom of expression.

With regard to the national media there has long been an in-balance in newspapers with a more right wing agenda being pushed in 80%.  The BBC was also felt not to be always neutral and quite selective of issues it promoted.  A few years ago I asked the organiser of a meeting on TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) which such an important topic rarely got coverage.  The response was he had asked the same question of a senior BBC presenter to be told 'they 'were leaned upon' not to give the topic much exposure!

An example of the suppression of freedom of expression had been experienced by a member who edits a more left wing periodical.  The paper edition was blighted by the deliberate lack of distribution by the two conglomerates who have a virtual monopoly of it. Since then he has struggled to get just a few on-line editions out having suffered from a vendetta instigated by a local politician and taken up by the blogger Guido Fawkes. Unfounded insinuations of anti-Semitism have resulted in extensive abuse and also death threats to many contributors including a local MEP!

We explored some solutions to this impasse, one of which was more use of social media which is where most of the younger generation got their news.  Northern Voices kindly offered us space to put our views out.  Following a jocular observation that we could fly-post our views on lamposts another suggested the group could produce newsheets to give out in the town centres, particularly as the older generation still often preferred a written format to digital.  The member editor of the paper, The WORD, suggested a leaflet on local issues could be inserted in his paper when it gets back into print again. 
 

It is ironic that as we come up to the 200th. anniversary of Peterloo, an event that captured the attention of newspapers at that time and led indirectly to the creation of the Manchester Guardian, that we are in such a situation now.  We might in the interim return to the spreading of ideas through being like the 'Pamphleteers' of previous centuries!

Follow us on Facebook at BOLD = Building Our Local Democracy or for more information on our group e-mail j.wilkins248@yahoo.com

*********

Appeal for Rohingya in Myanmar

Dear Foreign Minister Boris Johnson and Ambassador Sir Tim Barrow,


I am appalled at the apparent lack of political pressure, to date, from the
UN over the treatment of the Rohingya minority in Myanmar over a long period
of time. This has obviously been seen as a 'green light' to the military
leaders in that country to commit even greater atrocities.
It is not a sign of weakness to admit our training and arming of Myanmar
forces was wrong, as indeed is our selling of arms to Saudi Arabia to be used against civilians in Yemen.  I quote, hopefully correctly, David Davis MP, 'A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy'.
Please send a clear message to the UN that the situation in Myanmar is
ethnic cleansing and the UN has an obligation to take strong action on this
matter. It is pleasing that the UK has shown the way by suspending training
of the military in Myanmar, but more needs to be done.


--
John Wilkins (BOLD: Building Our Local Democracy)
[United Kingdom]

'The WORD' - 'A democratic socialist paper'

by Brian Bamford

LAST night, JOHN Wilkins of the group 'Building Our Local Democracy' (BOLD) sent Northern Voices a pdf form of No.22 of 'THE WORD' - 'Britain's First Democratic Socialist Newspaper'.  It is a rare specimen, in so far as it is a British leftist paper that manages to cover politics with a sense of humour.

THE current June issue of THE WORD No.22  includes coverage of the controversal Jeremy Corbyn interview with Laura Kuenssberg, who attacked the Party’s tax agenda as ‘the politics of envy'.  Elsewhere in the paper (on page 32), it is claimed that Corbyn has been a victim of 'media bias':

David Dimbleby is quoted:

'I don’t think anyone could say that Corbyn has had a fair deal at the hands of the press, in a way that the Labour party did when it was more to the centre, but then we generally have a rightwing press.'

He also suggested the 'Labour leader has more support among the public than he does among the parliamentary Labour party.'

Then on  page 27 THE WORD reprints a post from this Northern Voices' Blog entitled 'Noam Chomsky on Labour', which was an exchange between me and Trevor Hoyle essentially abassaout the reasons for the lack of popularity and political sex appeal of the Labour Party.

On pages 16 and 17 there is an interview by Mara Levenskuhn with George Galloway an independent candidate in Gorton, Manchester, who says that he is the read Labour candidate.   THE WORD reports here that since an earlier interview taken on May15th, Sweden has withdrawn the accusations against Assange, 'making it more obvious that what George Galloway said here about Assange’s case is true and fair'. 

Mr. Galloway responds to a question thus:   'One accusation I keep stumbling against is your so called sexism.  I would like to clear this out for the socialist readers. I BELIEVE SEXISM AND AND IDENTITY POLITICS IS FREQUENTLY USED AS A WEAPON AGAINST DISSIDENTS, SO I’D LIKE TO CLEAR THIS MISCONCEPTION FOR THE “WORD” READERSHIP.'

Page 36 has a report on the 'Miners Pension Scheme' by Leslie Moore, ex Hatfeld Main Colliery (Yorkshire),

Other pages cover Food Banks; Dementia; UK citizens fighting in Syria; Homeless Votes; Privtising Royal Mail;  recipies on 'Baked River Trout on new potatoes and cherry tomatoes with anchovy rub'.

Most interestingly THE WORD has republished an article by Les May originally on this N.V. Blog entitled 'IN ROCHDALE, A LACK ON CURIOUSITY AT THE TOP?'   This last piece has been somewhat ignored by the rest of the local media in Rochdale.  

www.thewordmedia.org.uk/  

 http://northernvoicesmag.blogspot.co.uk/2017/04/baffling-ballot-box-probe.html 

NHS Meeting in Middleton

JOINT BOLD (Building Our Local Democracy) and 38 Degrees Manchester Meeting.

Open Meeting to discuss the state of the NHS and its future under Devolution.

The meeting was held on Monday, 21st. March 2016 in the Sessions Room of the Olde Boar's Head, Middleton.
Speakers: John Coppinger (former procurement officer NHS), Estephanie Dunn ( Sec. NW College of Nurses), and Dr. Michael Taylor (GP and former member of local CCG)
 There were 19 others in attendance including Dr. Mo Jiva ( Lead for new Middleton Hub and chair of Bury and Rochdale GP group)
John Coppinger. (long career in NHS and management experience)
  John's main themes were the creeping privatisation and chronic underfunding of the NHS. To illustrate that there has been a degree of private funding in the Health Service since its inception. He recalled seeing Company signs above beds in the old Salford Royal showing they were for their employees. These firms knew that healthy workers were more productive.
  John felt there were many companies, and he quoted Virgin as one, who are 'muscling in' on NHS contracts and quoted there are 853 not for profit organisations working in the NHS currently. Rather than quote all the figures John mentioned, they and many more, can be found in the NHS Confederation Report published on January 15th., which is attached.
 In terms of Devolution the low base line in terms of healthfor the population of Greater Manchester has to be taken into account.
 In summation the NHS is surviving and delivering, but doing more with less.
Estephanie Dunn RCN. (NW Regional Director)
  Estephanie started by saying the NHS was the 'victim of its own success', trying to maintain standards whilst experiencing more pressure on services.       
 Whilst delivering more immunisation and wider range of services, the ageing population meant that more complex and diverse ailments were being treated. 
 In terms of nursing staff there were many factors, apart from increased workload which were demoralising colleagues. Reorganisation had seen career banding pushed down and targets were becoming harder to achieve. She described the career structure as being like a Christmas tree with just a few at the top rather than a 'jelly baby' structure where there were more people accessing better pay levels after  a certain length of service. As with doctors, the feeling of being undervalued was leading to many nurses to seek work abroad where they would be under less pressure to work long hours. They have, like Junior Doctors, the added incentive to leave so they are not having  to pay off debts incurred in training.
 In terms of recruitment there were 50,000 applicants for 30,000 vacancies because NHS England had reduced the number of places on offer.
 The need for better co-ordination of Health and Community Support is paramount as many of the elderly are being 'pushed' into hospital because of lack of support at home. Estephanie quoted a figure of £70,000 for one elderly patient which could have been avoided if there were enough people in the care system with the right skills.
 Manchester and other city regions have greater health problems due to external factors such as relative poverty, lack of access to good housing and associated problems of drug and alcohol dependence etc. In this region the abolition of business rates due next year for SMEs (small & medium enterprises) will cause problems to fund pro-active measures such weight management programmes which have been cut.
 Again one got the impression of having to do more with less.

Dr. Michael Taylor (Heywood GP, former member of CCG)
  Dr. Michael felt it important to take a balanced view of the NHS. Politics had a part to play but the NHS is too important to be politicised to the extent it has. Some degree of privatisation is inevitable but the money spent on buildings under Tony Blair's reign in office was not rewarded with a good return in terms of improved services. Although he felt productivity had gone up under this government he was pessimistic for the NHS if ever George Osborne became PM.
 Dr. Michael stressed the need for the public to be more responsible for their own health. Although diet, especially sugar intake were important factors it was the sedentary nature of our lifestyles that needed addressing. Calorific intake overall had not increased over recent decades but many people spend up to and above 23 hours a day without weight on their legs. He cited other pro-active measures for the public to monitor their health, such as having their own blood pressure machine in the house.
  The NHS was still performing well relative to other advanced nations according to the Commonwealth Fund. This despite spending less of our GDP on health than many countries. Going forward under Devo Manc there is a need for the public to be more involved in decision making and getting their voices heard. More people needed to come along to these types of meetings and have a say in the way services are run. Dr. Michael commented on the lack of proper consultation over Devolution. However he felt that a good choice had been made in the appointment of Sir. Peter Smith as chair of the Greater Manchester Combined Authority was a good one, and he had already negotiated more funding.
 Better health, he believes, starts with Primary Care in GP surgeries and in people's own homes and neighbourhoods. People looking out for each other, and participating in the debate as was happening with meetings like ours.

Open Forum.
 Comments came fast and furious from the audience. Some scathing comments about the interim mayor, Tony Lloyd and the Leader of Manchester City Council, Sir Richard Lees. The secrecy and lack of democracy in how the Devolution and appointment of a mayor had come about were the main bones of contention. Tony Ettenfield emphasised the need for people to get in touch with their councillors engage with the CCGs whenever possible, go to Township (or equivalent) meetings. Dr. Taylor felt we could play a part in involving more of the public in shaping how DevoManc worked. To this end, Dr. Jiva (lead doctor in the Middleton hub and chair of Bury and Heywood GPS) was keen to encourage more public involvement and would be hosting an open meeting on Wednesday, 13th. April, in the Middleton Masonic Hall, in which he would shed some light on the implications of DevoManc.
 There was some concern over how the new hubs, 4 in Rochdale MB, set up to provide extended GP surgery hours would work, especially with regard to making obtaining a doctor's appointment easier. An audience member was concerned that a person could be dropped from a GP's list if no response to 2 letters. Although this could happen there was a problem Dr. Taylor said of many GP lists having 'ghosts', that is persons who had passed away or moved out of the area. Dr. Jiva said there were improvements in record keeping now which meant he was able to see not just those on his list but all Rochdale MB patients.  
 Tony Ettenfield briefly mentioned the threat posed by TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership) to further privatisation of our NHS.